new member from poland seeking help

[Zilpower]

Hi everybody,
my name is Mark,I'm a German living temporally in Poland.I'm planning on getting a Zil131(m) to convert into our (my girlfriend's and newborn daughter's) home.We are hoping on living in it permanently,so we're scratching our coins together to finance it all.

It all seemed like a good and cheep way of living until we started researching prices,(BUT we're not giving up!) so far it's gonna cost us
around 14.000,-Euro's(and that's already more than we can afford )to have a liveable home (vehicle). Sorry for talking about money but in order to lower our future costs I'm posting this thread to ask for some help in finding the right equipment that wont give up on us after a year or so!

Since I'm a Industrial mechanic and not an electrician I have no exp. in choosing the wright stuff for a totally autonomous system.We're planning on living off the grid in Spain, but we also see the need for some fancy comfort like a fridge(running on LPG) and a washing machine.

My question to u guys would be:
What size inverter/charger do we need ;and what size/Brand of battery do we need?(would like to have deep cycle gel 12V)
for the following system: 3 solar panels 100W volt max.18V current max. 5.56A open circuit V. 21.7V (?) short circuit current 6.01A
max.V.1000W
total time per day
2 Laptops of 75W each 7-12h
1 washing machine 240V 900-1000W 2h
1 3D-Printer (for earning some money making miniatures)240V 220A 8h
4 ventilators 12V total 240W 24h
2 water pumps 12V750w(starting 1400-3000W) 3h
6 lights 240V total 260W 8h
1 telephone charger 240/5V 5W 1-2h

I'm not 100% sure about the times but i rather estimate to much than to little ;)

So if there are any electricians with too much time on their hands out there please help us

sorry for the long post!

mark

[zoltan]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

I'd be very surprised if you can fit all of that into a Zil box. Have a look in the Overlander/camper section. There are some internal dimensions for the Ural and Zil boxes. I think you'll be very tight for space.

I haven't done the maths on your electrical consumption but that looks an impossible/difficult target on 300w of panels. The other thing with a washing machine is water, I think you will need a serious amount.

As much as a Zil would be cool, maybe an old London double decker bus would be a better base vehicle? Plenty of space for panels on top and loads of interior space. Just a thought

[Zilpower]

thanks for the welcome Zoltan,

I,m aware of the dimensions (4m x 2.25m x 1,8m ,as far as I know) but I'm counting 2m of the length for the kitchen/toilet.
and 2m for the bed's witch will be convertible into a sitting area in the day time.

Always did like those buses though

About the power consumption I'm also very worried , I guess I was hoping for a miracle.An affordable machine in the A+++
category (178kWh/year) was so far my choice,since I can't seem to find an LPG powered machine ,looks like I will have to find a cheap generator for back up ,proper ably a diesel or LPG.

I haven't made any calculations for the water consumptions of the machine yet ,only for shower/toilet and drinking/cooking.
Planed on getting 2x250l tanks(to be placed under the beds/benches) and a RO8 reverse osmosis water filter,witch cleans 189l/day.

But as you already noticed it's gonna be my first camper conversion,want to stick to the Zil after all since it has some off road ability.
I'm always open for good advice though.

Thanks for your help

Mark

[Eastblock]

Welcome, interesting project you have going there.

If you really need to be running a washing machine then a generator is the way to go. If you buy a generator you might as well save money and not install solar panels. Running the washing machine off the genny will also save you buying a very expensive inverter. The rest of your equipment will run off a much smaller inverter/batteries. With a decent sized genny you would not have to run it very long to recharge the batteries. Some gennys are very quiet. You could use solar heating panels to pre-heat the water for the washing machine.

Try and search for LPG conversion kits for generators. I'm sure I have seen some for converting petrol generator.

[Eastblock]

1 3D-Printer (for earning some money making miniatures)240V 220A 8h
2 water pumps 12V750w(starting 1400-3000W) 3h

220A for the 3D printer? I hope that's a typo ;)

Why so powerful pumps? If you have a genny based system, use a 240V pump to pump some water up to a smaller hopper tank on the roof.

Ignoring the eco issues of a generator based system I think it will turn out much lighter and cheaper than a solar cell based system. Less weight means lower fuel consumption.

[Zilpower]

Hi Eastblock,
you're wright of course it's a typo,my bad, it should have read 220W and not amps.
The thing with the generator is that I can't constantly buy petrol for it so that's why I want solar panels for the normal daily use.
I'll probably do only about 1 laundry per week.
But I guess for the washing I will try to get a genny.I've found some on amazone that run on LPG.Have to find out about the availability
of LPG in that area of Spain first,so that's still to be researched ;)
The pump only takes 750W but for starting it there can be a peak of up to 3000W, and I don't want to burn my inverter,otherwise I would naturally buy a smaller inverter ,since money is the main issue.

thanks for your thoughts

Mark

[Eastblock]

Actual solar yield is always lower than people expect. Buy a decent diesel genny - you will need it ;) Those panels will not even run your laptops and your 3D printer.

IIRC inverters are not happy running flat out all the time so I'd add 50% over your calculated total wattage to be on the safe side. You probably need a true sine inverter to run those electronics.

[redneck]

My question to u guys would be:
What size inverter/charger do we need ;and what size/Brand of battery do we need?(would like to have deep cycle gel 12V)
for the following system: 3 solar panels 100W volt max.18V current max. 5.56A open circuit V. 21.7V (?) short circuit current 6.01A
max.V.1000W
total time per day
2 Laptops of 75W each 7-12h 150amps per day
1 washing machine 240V 900-1000W 2h 160 amps
1 3D-Printer (for earning some money making miniatures)240V 220A 8h 150 amps
4 ventilators 12V total 240W 24h 480amps
2 water pumps 12V750w(starting 1400-3000W) 3h 188amps
6 lights 240V total 260W 8h 173amps
1 telephone charger 240/5V 5W 1-2h 1.7 amps

I'm not 100% sure about the times but i rather estimate to much than to little ;)

So if there are any electricians with too much time on their hands out there please help us

sorry for the long post!

mark

Total Amps 1302.7
Battery bank size should be based on maximum of 30% depth of discharge, any more and your battery life will be severely reduced (based on lead acid batteries, wet or gel) Lithium can take a much higher Depth of Discharge at a much higher cost.
So you would be looking for a battery bank of 4350amp hours @20 amp/hr discharge rate, your going to need a bigger truck.
Cheap batteries heavily used i.e. cycled daily, will last about 12 months.
Good batteries can last up to 10 years (Rolls Surrette) if looked after.


As I have some experience of this when I lived on a boat, I can assure you that your figures are way off.
As for solar, think of it as supplemental rather than primary power, its nice to have but you need a generator as well.
The washing machine will need a 3kw inverter minimum due to the inrush current on the motor start up. Make sure it's a pure sine wave inverter as well, modified or worse still square wave inverters dont work well with electronics.
Lights= LED's very little power required
Water pumps 750w are you sure?
Ventilators? use natural convection and wind scoops.
You don't mention refrigeration, which is also a big power user.

I suggest you take a look at marine electrical systems for some guidance on power consumption and battery management.

cheers

[redneck]

Forgot to mention

The above calcs are based on charging your battery bank daily, if you want to go for 2 or more days without charging then the figures for battery bank size etc rapidly escalate.
Talking of charging, you really want to charge the batteries in 2 hours, any more and it gets very irritating, this would mean you need a very large generator and charger.

[Zilpower]

Thanks guys,

Well it looks like it's back to the drawing board:(

I was hoping on some thing like a 500-600Amh battery bank(cos that's the max. I can afford ),but this is way too much(4350Amh)!
Guess I'll have to cut the wishlist short.The idea be hide all the appliances was to live as be for, only independent.
But I will still need some source of free energy or I will go broke since I need Internet and 3D-printer to make a living.
Food wont be a problem I get it for free in Spain ,but fuel will be so i have to come up with some thing?!
I definitely thinking about a genny though only for the times I use the 3D-printer or the Wa.-ma.(washing machine),
but thanks for your help any ways guys:)

PS:I found a nice LPG fridge about 80l for 250,-euros at www.roller.de
also this site was interesting:http://www.spardeingeld.de/kuehlschraen ... hrank.html

oh,maybe some ideas on what inverter/charger (for 500-600Amh GEL Battery bank) victron or mastervolt wich is best suited ?

[redneck]

Take a look at your figures..

the ventilators are your biggest consumer, look at non powered versions or solar marine vents
laptops, are you really going to use 2 laptops 12 hours a day, why
water pumps at 750w, are you running jet washers or something
lighting 260w, LED's are cheap and run around 7w per metre
Washing m/c, how often do you need it, twice a week, do your washing when everything else is shut down.

We had a 900 amp battery bank on board which we could stretch out to a week if we didn't run the washing m/c, that included lighting, central heating and entertainment T.V. Stereo etc. before charging.

If you do the above suggestions you can reduce your battery needs considerably.

Victron and Mastervolt are both good, I have slight preference for Mastervolt but only because of their looks.
We had both on our boat.

BTW why do you want gel batteries, I prefer good quality wet cell batteries but you do need to maintain them.

[Zilpower]

Hi redneck,

The values on the list are not of actual appliances but off lists from the net,and ruff estimates I made myself ,and since I'm an Industrial
mechanic I have really no f...ing clue of electricity or realistic values ,most info on the net is controversial any how to me .This is why I'm asking u guys.I also think your estimates about the usage times are wright,I'll probably won't be using 2 computers at the same time.just like the water pump,it's supposed to pump water in to the tanks,which are 2x 250l,so I found a cheap water pump (12v; 12,5l/min. ;2.4bar ;4,0A 262,-PNL =65,-euro) and made a ruff estimate to which I added some extra time just to be sure that I'll have more than enough power to run everything.But what I really need are experience values which I hoped to get from forum members

I'll try to stick to the general idea of running my appliances but I'm also flexible and as long as someone points out my mistakes I'll be able to learn how it's done.Was thinking about LED's too but don't know how to calculate their resistance or what i should buy.
So please keep sending advice and thanks again.
mark